Flatland - what exactly makes a competant judge for flatland?

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Date: 2010-04-27 15:17:23 Direct Link: what exactly makes a competant judge for flatland?   Reply

what do you guys think? don't just read, respond!

I honestly think just because a rider has rode for a long time does not instantly qualify that person to be a good judge... just cause they been around for a while... does not in any way shape or form mean that they don't have bias towards different styles of riding.... as seen at jomo....

if anything at all... I would say that expert/am riders would make better judges than some guys who used to compete in pro in the 90's.... for a lot of reasons.... not just because ams get a better sense of difficulty cause they see stuff they may have tried and couldn't do....

id say from things I've heard and gathered from pro's n ams, from my experience with both, id say ams are a lot more open minded to different riding styles.... I have yet to meet too many ams who blatantly say "this or that riders style sucks".... I've only heard that kinda stuff from pros.... a lot of pros I've come across have often times ripped on another pro riders style or way of doing tricks, and this is the exact mentality that should stay out of judging.... and id say that most ams aren't jaded toward contests to the point where they have a vendetta to screw someone else at a contest that they felt they got screwed by in the past....  cause you can straight up tell why some of these guys chosen to judge botched the job..... it's not rocket science figuring out the why.....

bottom line, the older and more experienced you get in flatland, the more jaded towards contests and other riding styles you get, and in general, the more likely you are to use that bias against other riders if you were to judge... its just history repeating itself.... why? cause guys that got screwed in the past want to make sure anyone in the future feels the same things they did(I've even heard those exact words out of a pro asking why they felt contests get rigged).... it's a stupid endless cycle of bullshit... why is it that some of these jaded older riders want to make the flatland of today, just as crappy as the flatland of the past.... repeating all the same mistakes(parts, contests, sponsors, etc), and with the shit I've been reading about showmanship..... eventually probly try to bring back full leather jumpsuits.... it essentially boils down to these jaded people not wanting todays flatland to be better than their era of flat....

man... id go onto one of those "if I had a dollor for every time" rants.... but im sure rybs would come in here and call me a liar, even though what I said in the past was MORE  than proven at jomo.....

is it funny to anyone else that rybs is kinda playin the middle ground on this? can't call out powell for botchin the contest cause he'll get banned from chenga, yet wants to talk about FIXING the judging issues.... you can't fix something if it's not broke rybs.... and who broke the judging at jomo?

UH-HUH......

thats what I thought.....

whats powells take on everyone blatantly DISAGREEING with the outcome of the contest rybs? "anyone who doesn't like my opinion can fuck off?" ???????

 


I'll support dans comp till bmx companies start selling direct to their customers...
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Date: 2010-04-27 16:51:45 Direct Link: Re: what exactly makes a competant judge for flatland?   Reply

You make a good point that maybe they would be better off with expert/am riders judging. These guys usually study everything going on currently in an effort the work at moving to that level, so its only natural they would have a great comprehension of the level of difficulty in a pros run now a days. The younger riders are constantly absorping every bit of flat footage out there, and I would imagine have a keen eye for the nuances.

 I woudn't ever want to judge anything and not because of the extreme scrutiny, but the speed that some of these pros perform at,, its blinding.


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Date: 2010-04-27 21:02:48 Direct Link: Re: what exactly makes a competant judge for flatland?   Reply

best option i've heard yet is to let the competitors judge themselves. no panels. let the riders decide who's best.


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Date: 2010-04-27 21:07:30 Direct Link: Re: what exactly makes a competant judge for flatland?   Reply

You don't think ego might get in the way? It would be interesting to see. Big money might sway opinion though.


Joined: 2009-10-31


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Date: 2010-04-28 06:52:56 Direct Link: Re: what exactly makes a competant judge for flatland?   Reply

put it this way, i think if you would have asked trevor who won his battle he would have said ucchie.  dude patted uccie on the back before he  went out on the floor...

every contestant not involved in the ongoing battle should have a vote


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Date: 2010-04-28 12:41:59 Direct Link: Re: what exactly makes a competant judge for flatland?   Reply

Yeah, in theory that would work.... but its like communism, it sounds good in theory, but it don't work.... the problem with that is that friends and different riding crews are going to vote for guys in their crew or for long time homies..... its still open for a lot of bias.... then its just opening things up for a popularity contest....

and as for the despute over how the "Originality" category needs to be looked at? common sense on stuff thats just new gets a good originality vote, but what about everything else? i would handle everything else in originality on the basis of how a trick is performed.... some tricks just have a generic form to them.... example: standard steam roller on your left foot, right hand on seat.... its just a generic way of doing that trick that almost everyone does, its more or less filler for a lot of people.... but how you use it, should be looked at as well.... How many generic trick positions is the rider using? are they taking a generic trick and making it look unique(hold back tire instead of seat)? I mean seriously, the more akward stuff you have to do at once, the harder something usually is.... like doing a peg wheelie, cranking the pedals with your hand, while spinning the bars and holding the seat.... its a lot of stuff to focus on over your normal generic peg wheelie....

another example... I don't remember where I saw it or even who it was.... might have been at the 02 york jam, or 04... but dude was doin some blenders, and flipping the bars around every revolution of the cranks.... it looked different, and he only messed with it for 2 tries... but that to me, seemed original over a generic blender.... it looked hard as fuck not to get your knees tangled in the wheel while he was fenagling to flip the wheel with the pegs....

and you also have to look at how some of these generic tricks are gotten into.... theres a lot of ways to get into a generic straight rolling half packer....

and I also really don't think you can judge a contest right there and then on the spot and just raise a flag.... I honestly think it should be video taped from multiple angles and reviewed by the judges in a private room where they can deliberate as they watch the video.... kinda like what they did at the chicago scrap contests..... cause if you watch the video, you may notice something subtle that you didn't see before.... this is especially important for people that have fast spinny styles... its hard to even tell whats goin on some times with guys that have really fast styles....

flatland and balance seem to be about little intricate details to make everything happen right, so why shouldn't the judging follow that? you can't always follow all of it at once either.... for all you know, the judge might be writing something down and miss something really important to there category(I've actually seen this happen watching a contest from across the judges table and I think it caused the rider to place lower)....

sure the flag method makes things speedy, but speedy = rash decision making.... you might as well ask the judge to pick a random number between 1-100.... or better yet have them throw darts at a dart board.....

I dunno, I just think flatlands too complicated to just raise a flag with out having seen it from a few angles...

 


I'll support dans comp till bmx companies start selling direct to their customers...

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Date: 2010-05-03 18:02:51 Direct Link: Re: what exactly makes a competant judge for flatland?   Reply

maybe they should have two pannels of judges. one official made up of pro's and or long time riders, and one pannel made up of experts and AM's just to see how they score against the official pannal.

the video tape sounds like a great idea but it kills the battle format style from what i hear. thats how it should be though.

 

i think flat contest should be quiet......no music.......like a tennis match. i just think these guys are going out there trying to pull their shit.........it should be quiet.....so they can consentrate. i can't stand listening to the anouncer, half the time he's calling out tricks wrong....or sounds like he's just makeing stuff up. i'd have to wear head phones.......

we should have a quiet sign........like golf.

Chase styles...........shhhhhh..........pay attention......

 

i guess people like the hype the anouncer throws though.........


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Date: 2010-05-03 19:47:10 Direct Link: Re: what exactly makes a competant judge for flatland?   Reply

maybe they should have two pannels of judges. one official made up of pro's and or long time riders, and one pannel made up of experts and AM's just to see how they score against the official pannal.

the video tape sounds like a great idea but it kills the battle format style from what i hear. thats how it should be though.

 

i think flat contest should be quiet......no music.......like a tennis match. i just think these guys are going out there trying to pull their shit.........it should be quiet.....so they can consentrate. i can't stand listening to the anouncer, half the time he's calling out tricks wrong....or sounds like he's just makeing stuff up. i'd have to wear head phones.......

we should have a quiet sign........like golf.

Chase styles...........shhhhhh..........pay attention......

 

i guess people like the hype the anouncer throws though.........


 

You make an interesting point Joey. 2 pannels is interesting. As for the video tape, Im all for that, if its good for pro sports it should be good for flat,, they really need the angles to see the complexityof links(for the future mabe??)

 

Man dont start that Chase stuff LOL.


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Date: 2011-03-18 09:40:33 Direct Link: Re: what exactly makes a competant judge for flatland?   Reply

well, its been a while since this was discussed, and its probly about the right time to bring this up again, as the contest season is almost here..... its better to have this discussed and any issues sorted out before the contest, than have the results create another shitstorm.....

What have we learned since the last contest season? that bias is still a big part in contest placing....... do we need a judging category that specifically taylors to judge bias? based on how many ass kissing tricks did the rider throw out towards the biased judging pannel? like if they had mostly older guys, you could throw in a cherry picker, or a norri stand, just to appease the tastes of those who are biased towards newer riding?

I still stand by having the contest filmed from multiple angles..... I also still think that when 2 judges disagree on a riders performance, this would help.... I mean in pro sports, when theres a descrepency, they play back what happened in slo-mo..... why shouldn't flatland have instant replay action to help the judges make better decisions? A lot of the dvd's we as riders used to purchase had a lot of slo-mo stuff cause there was just too much going on at normal speed to see everything that happened.... why wouldn't this be taken into account in judging?

sure this slows down the speed of things, but you would only really need it in a hand full of decisions.... your not going to slo-mo compare first place to last place..... likely you would only use this to decide the final few....

and it wouldn't hurt to play the instant replays for the crowd to watch...... they do it all the time at pro sporting events... you could even let the crowd decide a best trick from a hand full of slo-mo instant replays...... hype it up with some good tunes, and the crowd would probly get into it...

and as for judging the whole brakes/brakeless thing people get worked up about... that really needs to be looked at with a more inteligent point of view than what people throw out there.... if 2 riders do the same link equally smooth.... whiplash to steam roller to hiker juggler, to karl kruiser out.... 1 has brakes and the other doesnt... this is a draw, because those tricks don't use brakes, they are rolling tricks.... so brakeless means nothing in this situation... now if they do the same link, pinky squeak to fw hang 5, to bar flip to half packer, to x-foot hiker out.... the brakeless guy would win over, because pinky squeaks are a brake trick, and are extremely dificult with out brakes...and a lot of bar flips tend to get the brakes pulled....

discuss and resolve.....


I'll support dans comp till bmx companies start selling direct to their customers...

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Date: 2012-10-30 08:09:14 Direct Link: Re: what exactly makes a competant judge for flatland?   Reply

What makes a competant judge for flatland?

A proven judging system. A system that has been devoloped, refined, and tested though many years.

So many contests.... so many different judging systems. Once you get everybody using the same system... then you can "judge" the judges. Ideally I  would hope everybody uses common sense as to what they see and follow the guidelines of whatever system they chose to use.

If you don't like the results from a particular event, don't compete, or practice more dialed routines for next time around. Every good contest panel has a riders meeting prior to the competition and should clearly outline WHAT they are judging. This will allow riders to make the required changes to score better.

Generally, riders who have a background in this sport make better judges, as they have experience on what they are judging. Easy.


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